PERM - Labor Certification

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Transcript: Leaving an Employer after Approval of Green Card

Hi everyone this is Rajiv S. Khanna for immigration.com the Law Offices of Rajiv S Khanna, P.C.

I have been trying to get to this email now for a few days and it just keeps getting postponed. But this was from one of our community members who has a bunch of questions about what happens after  you get your green card  if you have done your AC21, not done your AC21 what to do, not to do to make the process of naturalization eventually smoother.

Question number 1.  How long must one stay with their employer after getting a Green Card?

Now we do have a very detailed video on this. If you go to my blog (http://forums.immigration.com/forumdisplay.php?253-Rajiv-s-Blog) you will get a video that talks about how long must you stay. I am not going to repeat that information here.   That information has already been covered.

He also asks along with a response to this question please provide any exceptions that might exist

I will give a very small summary. Let’s take the situation where no AC21 is involved. All we have is an employee who is staying with the same employer who sponsored their green card and today they got their green card approval.  When can they leave safely without negatively affecting their naturalization? 

And the answer is it is difficult to say depends upon the circumstance. There is no six month magic rule that people often talk about. But the way it works is green card is given based upon the premise that the employee is taking the job on a permanent basis. Permanent does not mean forever. Permanent simply means indefinite basis. And what is important is at least in my view that the intention or the intent at the time of getting the green card approval must be indefinite. So if I have already started packing my bags before I got my approval and I move three days later there could be some question about it.  Although  in the age of AC21 this question, did you really  have the intention of working here permanently, which in real  words means indefinitely - it has become very diluted because of the AC21.  At least that’s the way I would see it. I doubt very much government should make an issue out of it as long as you know the two jobs that you’re doing the one that you go from and the one you go to are substantially similar positions.

I would make an AC21 type argument saying that I basically ported over to a new job which was similar, if it ever became an issue during naturalization. But if you wanted to avoid all issues then I would say stay as long as you can, at least a few months after you got your green card approval and only then leave.

Let’s say in the AC21 context things become more complicated. This is the worse scenario. Lets say you moved job one to job two and before you could file anything with the government your green card  got approved, so what has happened is, you were hoping to use you AC21 but before you could  inform the government your green card got approved, so you never filed anything formally notifying the government  that  your changing  jobs.

Of course you are not required to under AC21 law. You are not required to file anything. But the fact that you did not file anything, makes it complicated because tomorrow when naturalization time arrives, the government could notice that you left the sponsoring employer ten days before the green card got approved or three days before the green card got approved.

So technically, you never took the job for which the green card was meant. Now again here the argument would be I was going to use AC21, this is a problem in the procedures, it is not something I have done wrong. The AC21 process does not really require government notification by or before a certain time when I am changing jobs and in fact it does not require notification at all, so how can you hold me responsible for something for which I am not even required to inform the government. So what should you do - just make sure you have some documentation that shows that the job that you moved to was substantially similar to the job that your moving from. I would strongly recommend getting a lawyer involved.  And keep that documentation for the next several years if it becomes an issue during naturalization you can provide the documentation and make the AC21 argument.

So the situation where you were doing AC21 and the situation were you are doing basically a job after getting the green card approval  are the same except were the green card gets approved while you are still  in the process of thinking of filing an AC21 level. Otherwise if you change jobs - let’s say you went to job one to job two and you filed a notification with the government and then ten days later the green card got approved now you are in the same situation probably as the guy who stayed at the same job and did not move jobs.

Number 2 question is.... Is there any documentation that one must acquire from his employer at the time of exit?

One point I want to make, what if you want to work and the employer says I don’t have a job for you. I think in those circumstances it is a good idea to have some kind of termination letter or some kind of email or an acknowledgment in the letter that we understand from the employer, that says we understand the you are agreeable to continue to work for us on a indefinite basis however because of XYZ circumstances or business circumstances we can no longer offer you this job. I think that would protect you to a reasonable extent.

There are cases that I have seen a few years ago I did some research on this issue. There were not a whole lot of cases but there were some cases where the government tried to take somebody’s   green card   and the court said: well if the employee is willing and the employer is not what can you do? We should let them keep their green card.

Documentation in cases where the employer is going to lay you off should be kept in the form of a termination letter and if possible some kind of acknowledgement that the employee is willing and able or even some kind of an email that you can send to the employer saying that I am willing to continue with this job on a indefinite basis, I was hoping it will be a permanent job but I understand that you don’t  have it any longer - something like that -  it shows that you have documented - I think we are paranoid, but I think it is better to be paranoid.

Number 3 question is:  How is the naturalization process impacted by exiting the wrong way? How does anyone find out about how you exited if let's say you apply for naturalization after 10 yrs?

They can not only refuse the naturalization they can even try to take away your green card. So one of the things you can do is, remember when you file for naturalization within 5 years of getting your I-485 approval, it is easy to reverse I-485 approval in the first five years, so one of the things you can do is file for naturalization after five years have passed. The law allows you to file 90 days before the five years are over I would say do the naturalization application ten days after the 5 years from the green card approval are over.

That is another thing you can do. That way if they want to come after your green card they (USCIS) have to go through a longer process rather than just revoking your I-485 approval. One concrete suggestion is apply for a naturalization a few days after the five years from the approval of your green card are over.

How does anyone find out about how you exited if let's say you apply for naturalization after 10 yrs?

If you apply after ten years they probably cannot find out. I think the form N- 400 only asks for your employment history for the last five years.

Question 4 :  Can the IO (I guess what you mean is the adjudication officer)involved in the naturalization process reach out to previous employer for any reason? If so how does one prepare for that contingency since the employee (and maybe his boss) might not be with the same employer at the time.

Normally no I have never seen it that happen in over two - three decades of my practice. And of course you point out that by that time maybe the boss and everything is all changed and the answer is yes.  That is a practical difficulty. In fact I was reviewing a case from Seattle, Washington State Federal Courts, where the judge had pointed out that when the government creates a situation where it is impossible for an employee to go back and fulfill the requirements of the evidence the government is asking for e.g.: where there was an I-140 revocation and the employee had already left the employer and now they are trying to go back and revoke the I- 140. He cannot get the documentation that they want. They are trying to revoke the I- 140 several years after it was approved. It’s impossible for the employee to get the information that they are looking for. I think something like that would work for us.

I am not that concerned about the adjudication officer reaching out to the old employer it would be just impossible for any employer to keep the records that long anyway, if it is several years down the line.

Number 5: Can any of the employers that one has worked for before getting the GC approval negatively impact one's naturalization process? Any safeguards that you could recommend

No ... I cannot think of anything, except if there is an active fraud that you have committed and that fraud is against the US government in any way for e.g.:  giving a false degree certification etc then you can have a problem but otherwise there is no issue and during naturalization they don’t go to the old employers.

Number 6: If a previous employer gets into legal issues because of their business practices can that negatively impact one's naturalization process?

Again that depends, if there was fraud in your green card approval that can definitely become an issue. If it becomes part of the record government could actually unravel the I-140 and try to unravel the green card and then of course that affects your naturalization as well. 

Number 7:  What documentation does one need to hold on to for naturalization purposes like paystubs, offer letters etc?

I just described that documentation. Paystubs is always a good idea as we are dealing with some of the cases where USCIS is trying to revoke I-140s for fraud and we are able to prove that there is no fraud because the people that they are coming after were actually working. Here are the paystubs, here are the bank deposits slips that show that this money was not only received from the employer, but also deposited.

Number 8: Can negative information or any information posted on the Internet (social media for example) be used against someone in the naturalization process?

Not unless it was the kind of information which would bar you from getting naturalization such as - it is a crude e.g.:- but let’s say you are trying to solicit a minor for immoral purposes. That could become a problem. Because remember good moral character is part of naturalization- moral character is implicated, at least in my mind when there is something negative being done against US government or the laws of this country. It can become relevant, the information on the social media, but not just because you are an obnoxious person or you are in a bad mood and you have written something bad. It has to be something more than that. I get this question all the time what if I am in bankruptcy does that affect naturalization.  No it does not. Only time you could have a problem is if you skipped on your taxes but even there - a proper bankruptcy discharges some kind of claims and if those claims are discharged they cannot be held against you.

Number 9: Can a disgruntled employer or colleague negatively impact

Again unless you have committed a fraud I don’t see why.

Number 10: General wisdom on what NOT to do after getting one's GC and before citizenship?

Make you file the AR-11. Try not to get arrested. Lead a good life. Other than that I have nothing else to recommend. Most of our clients get a list of things they should be doing. Filing AR-11 is important. Within 10 days of moving address from one place to another you should file AR-11. You can do it online.

I hope this helps. Good luck people!!!

EB3 to EB2 conversion

EB3 to EB2 porting

EB3 to EB2

 Good afternoon, everyone.  This is US Immigration Attorney, Rajiv S. Khanna for immigration.com, the Law Offices of Rajiv S. Khanna, P.C.

 This is a community information call.  It is not intended to create an attorney/client relationship.  Whatever we say here remains merely an informational conversation.

 This is a follow-up to the August 30 Community Conference Call.

 We are talking about issues related to converting from EB3 to EB2.

 What is this idea of EB-3 to EB-2 conversion?

 Most of you know that EB-3 for countries like India and China are very backed up and EB-2’s are better.  Actually, for the rest of the world also, EB-2 is much better.  So sometimes even though you have obtained a Labor Certification (PERM certification) and then you obtained an I-140 approval or you are on the path to that, you feel, “Oh, maybe I should have filed an EB-2, or maybe circumstances have changed and now I can file under EB-2.”  So, in those cases, when we get the priority date from an EB-3 case and put it on top of an EB-2 case, thereby essentially converting an EB-3 case to an EB-2 case, we refer to that loosely as a conversion.  Really, it is not a conversion.  It is a new case filed under EB-2, and essentially the priority date is being transferred.

One relevant question here.  Can priority dates be transferred if an employer revokes my old I-140? 

 The answer is “Yes.”  USCIS has said that they will allow transfers (carryovers) of priority dates even if the old I-140 is revoked, as long as the revocation is not for fraud.

So, when you do this analysis of EB-3 to EB-2 conversion, the first question you want to ask yourself is “Am I currently qualified for EB-2?”  

Why is this question important?  Remember a Green Card is for a job in the future, which means today I am working as a programmer; tomorrow’s job could be a project manager, and even though I continue to work as a programmer for the next three years or until I get my Green Card, it is not a problem.  The future job of project manager can be given to me once the Green Card is approved.  Or before.  That is up to the employer, but it is not required.  So the idea is a Green Card is for a future job.  However, you must be qualified for it on the date you filed the PERM application. 

So let’s say you have three years of experience after Bachelor’s Degree, and you know that the Green Card will take three or four more years, can you file under EB-2 today?  

No, because you are not qualified.  You may be qualified in two years or three years, but that does not mean you can file an EB-2 right now.

So are you currently qualified for EB-2?

One of the recommendations I have is for people who are not qualified and don’t have the five-year experience or have a three-year Bachelor’s Degree, you may consider doing a Master’s Degree online.  I have a video on this.  It’s on my blog.  It tells you how to choose an appropriate on-line Master’s Degree program that is accredited and that will help you get into EB-2.

Here is a link to the video and a transcript:

Accreditation of distance education for EB-2

The next question you want to ask yourself is Do I want to process my EB-2 case with the same employer who petitioned the EB-3 or some other employer?

It is a little bit easier to do it with another employer, but given the choice between going with a totally new employer and going with an employer who is totally, solidly behind me, who is going to pay the attorney’s fees.  This is a considerable expense.  If they’re on my side and they want to cooperate fully with the law, then of course I would stay with the same employer.

The next question you have to ask yourself is Do you need a promotion--present or future?

What does that mean?  What if you have three years of experience before you joined this employer, you want to process your Green Card through this employer, and you’ve got two years with this employer now?  Now you’ve got five years but two years are with the same employer through whom you are going to file your EB-2 who also did your EB-3 earlier.  In order to use that experience, you must be offered a job which is more than fifty percent different than what you were doing before.  Let’s say the old job was all coding and the new job is mostly providing project management, so that’s a promotion and then the experience that you have gained with this employer can be applied towards your EB-2.

I hope I’m making myself clear.  Most of you already know the concepts, but still I want to put it out there so that you are sensitized to the issues.  You can ask your lawyers the right kind of questions and make sure your case is being properly approached.  These concepts are difficult.  They can be complicated.  Even we can make mistakes.  Lawyers are not perfect, as all of you know.  Be educated and take your lawyers’ help in making these decisions.

It is very important to have a bona fide job.  

What does that mean?  If you have a three-employee company and the employer says, “I will you a promotion.”  That’s a little difficult to establish and believe.  It can be true but, if you are a 300-employee company or a 3,000-employee company, probably a better case for a promotion, but of course it all depends upon the facts of the case.  I’m just giving you an example.  This does not mean smaller companies cannot process promotion cases.

How do I eliminate the risk of problems of EB-3?

What does that mean?  I already have my EB-3 approval.  I don’t want to do anything that’s going to mess that up.

What you can do is, you can make sure, taking the example of the programmer under EB-3 who wants to go for project manager under EB-2.  If your EB-3 was for a programmer, make sure you continue working as a programmer until the I-140 for the new case is approved.  So don’t change jobs, because, if you take a promotion to project manager, then the Government could question, "This guy has already taken a promotion, then why would he come back to the lower job which is the Green Card job?” Do not take a promotion until the I-140 for the new case is approved.  That would be important.

What if I used AC-21?

This is a very tricky situation. You are one of the lucky ones who’s got your I- 485 pending and I-140 is approved under EB-3.  You changed from IBM to Sun Microsystems.  You changed employers.  Your job was programmer.  Now, for AC-21, the job that Sun gives you has to be the same or similar to the job IBM gave you.  So it’s got to be a programmer or thereabouts.  Now the problem here is this.  In order for Sun Microsystems to process your case under EB-2, they have to assess whether they have to promote you so that an EB-2-level job can be given to you or can they use the same job.  This can be tricky.

So for AC-21, the key question is can the same job which was the subject of AC-21 be used to file an EB-2 case?  

Tricky question.  Depends upon the facts of the case.

Now, to the posted set of Questions from the Community Conference call of August 30th.

First Set of Questions

Question:  I have an I-485 pending on EB-3.  I have been with my company for 12 years.  They are planning to apply for EB-2.  Same company.  I have a Bachelor’s four-year engineering degree from India.  Can I qualify for EB-2?

 Answer:  Yes if the job that is being offered to you is sufficiently dissimilar from the EB-3 job.

Question:  Is there any audit risk?

 Answer:  No.  Filing for a conversion (again, I am using the term “conversion” loosely) does not create any additional audit risks.

Question:  If we apply in EB-2, will my EB-3 application processing stop?

 Answer:  No, it does not stop.

Question:  What happens to the EB-3?

 Answer:  It goes on.  Don’t take up a promotion.  I just mentioned that.

Question:  My wife is working on EAD.  Will her EAD be affected?

Answer:  No, not at all.  No problem at all.

Question:  If I get EB-2 I- 140 approved, can I use EB-3 priority date?

Answer:  Yes.

Question:  At that time, will I get another EAD from EB-2 processing?

Answer:  No.  What you do is, you take the EB-2 I-140 approval and put it on top of the existing I-485.  So your old I-140 gets knocked out and the new one now sits on top of your I-485.  So I-485 does not need to be re-filed.

Second set of questions

Question:  He is preparing for his I-140 for EB-2.  Can this be done premium processing?

Answer:  Sure.

Question:  Do we have to specify the pending EB-3 case information?

Answer:  You will have to, because if there is an I-140 approved or pending under the old case, you have to mention that.  There is a question I think on the form.

Question:  Should we do it during the I-140 filing?

Answer:  Yes.  On the form itself, there is a question.  If there is only a Labor Certification pending, there is nothing to say.  If the I-140 is either pending or approved from the old case, you have to say it in the new I-140.

Question:  When I started filing for my EB-2 case, my attorney mentioned not to file AC-21. 

Answer:  I think that’s a personal choice.  I like to file AC-21’s and then I like to assess whether I would need a promotion case or I can go ahead with the same AC-21 job for EB-2.  I would like your lawyer to decide that as I do not know the case.